PDA

View Full Version : Monitor 21



NEWHOPEFARMS
01-06-2012, 11:56 AM
restarting a monitor 21 today that looks new inside...using the internal tank...pot warmed up went to 4 bars..after a few mins went to 8 bars flashing...no thumping noise...removed capillary line it was clear..no fuel coming thru capillary linethough...any ideas here please?

hawkins111
01-06-2012, 03:53 PM
No thumping means no fuel pump. You could have a blocked exhaust or air pipe. We donít know how long it been since that stove ran last so the combustion motor may not be turning or turning slow. If thatís the case the air safety switch wonít allow the fuel pump to come on.

Tom

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-07-2012, 09:30 PM
yes...I should have given more info...the heater was only used for 3 yrs and worked perfectly before it was put in storage.... it has not been turned on for 9 yrs probably...I looked in the plastic air pipe and there were numerous dirt dobber nest in there....lol...I do not hear any motor or fan come on during the cycle at all...my grandfather purchased and loved this heater before he passed away...I really want to get this heater going again....so thank you very much for any help you can give...

Jerry

msearcher
01-07-2012, 10:56 PM
with the front grill off look behind the fuel pump and look for the combustion motor (with the plastic fan ). This should be spinning
if the combustion motor is working.

If its not spinning freely it may not be putting enought air into the combustion chamber.

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-08-2012, 12:08 AM
Tom...yes it will turn freely...but that fan never comes on during the cycle...

HayZee518
01-08-2012, 03:05 AM
the minute you turn on the heater the combustion blower should run. its supposed to run all the time and shuts off when the set point is reached or when you manually turn the heater off after a short time delay. the fan runs at a constant velocity. its speed increases or decreases depending on the position of the damper solenoid flapper. check for power out at the combustion blower motor connection on the microprocessor. check the two fuses on the motherboard.

hawkins111
01-08-2012, 01:37 PM
The combustion blower should come on right away. If it does not come on check the resistance on the black wires. Remove the wires from the main board and you should get 22 OHMís. With the wires off, try to start the stove and check for voltage. You should see 92 volts AC to start with. If you have high or no resistance you need a new motor, no voltage you will need a new or serviced main circuit board.

Tom

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-08-2012, 06:36 PM
Thanks guys...will work on it 2nite and see what its doing....

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-23-2012, 05:48 PM
ok...checked..the ohms and amps...connection of the combustion fan to the motherboard was loose...cut the heater on...combustion fan started right up....pot heats up...fan is drawing air freely and exhaust air is good and warm and flowing good...goes to 8 bars and switches off..blower fan never comes on but the expansion chambers are hot....any ideas?...never did hear the fuel pump thumping though...

HayZee518
01-23-2012, 06:19 PM
any kerosene product will absorb moisture and when it does the kerosene breaks down into a brownish sludge. this cover everything in the fuel sump. you'll need to cut off the fuel flow and remove the whole sump tank and clean it out. GUMOUT works the best in dissolving the sludge. Q tips work good here too. a 9/16" wrench or a 14 mm wrench fits the brass gland nut on the fuel line. take everything out of the sump tank but don't disturb the adjustment screw on the float tang. what's happening is fuel is getting to the sump but with all the gunk, the solenoid pump is starving for fuel. I'll betcha the screen in the side of the sump is jammed full of brown junk. 8 bars means no fuel or weak fuel flow. it isn't filling the sump fast enough. BTW before you start the heater, unplug it then plug it in again. this resets the computer. whenever the unit goes into lockout, unplug and plug in the cord again.

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-23-2012, 07:52 PM
thanks HZ....so I am taking the sump pump out with the pump attached to the top as one piece?...is it just the 4 base screws that are holding the sump assembly in place?,,,btw I am using the internal tank as the fuel source...not an outside tank...should I try and clean the screen b4 I pull the whole assembly or is taking the sump assembly out and disassembling it the only way to get all the sludge issue resolved....

thanks


Jerry

Bryand
01-23-2012, 08:04 PM
You might want to check and make sure the black hose from the air pressure switch to the blower is clear and also the copper tube going into the blower. It could be that a mud dobber has clogged it. Also a common mistake is that the yellow air hose to the exaust pipe is hooked up on the wrong side and is hooked to the extra hole for the exauxt. If so the blower is not pulling in air and fuel pump wont pump. I had one guy that had taken his out for years and cleaned it but one time he hooked the hose up wrong. May not be it but worth checking.

HayZee518
01-23-2012, 08:29 PM
you can try just cleaning out the sump filter but in the long run eventually you'll need to clean out the sump. I've owned my new 2400 for three years and each year I had to clean out the brown crap from the sump.
INFO to Bryand - the OP said he cleaned out the intake/discharge lines.

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-23-2012, 09:18 PM
HZ...I am taking the sump off at first light in the morning...it looks like there are just 4 base screws holding it in place....going to get a few cans of gumout 2nite...thanks a bunch...

Bryand
01-24-2012, 08:09 AM
HZ...I am taking the sump off at first light in the morning...it looks like there are just 4 base screws holding it in place....going to get a few cans of gumout 2nite...thanks a bunch...
Be careful to look at everything on the inside if you rellay tear it apart. Float, springs,
needle valves. You want to know where they go back.

HayZee518
01-24-2012, 08:39 AM
the internals of the sump are really straight forward about where they go. the only area that is sticky is the position of the needle valve. the tangs on it go only one way so when the toggle over center lockout activates, it pushes the needle valve down, NOT up. In the up position it'll keep the needle valve to seat open and you'll flood out the sump.

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-24-2012, 11:29 AM
all right....removed the sump assembly...filter completely clean...inside of sump had no brown gunk either...made sure in line and cappillary lines were clear...plugged back in...combustion fan comes on immediately...I can hear the pump thumping now where it wasnt before...no fuel coming out of cappillary at all....:mad:

HayZee518
01-24-2012, 11:47 AM
ok, s all the prestarts are working which allows the fuel pump to operate. all that is left is to rod out the small copper cappillary tube and its exit into the combustion pot. take a bare piece of copper telephone wire and rod out the whole tube, then take a 1/8 inch drill bit WITH YOUR FINGERS and drill out the end that goes into the pot. be very careful with that pot fitting. it is a brass gland nut which mates to a steel tube into the pot. do it when its cold. it is very easy to cross thread it. the silicone gasket and washer is necessary.

Bryand
01-24-2012, 12:32 PM
Do you have any fuel pumping from the top of the fuel pump when it is pumping.

NEWHOPEFARMS
01-24-2012, 01:34 PM
all right...rodded out the cappillary line with a 18 ga copper wire...put back together...started up fine, combustion fan on ...pump started thumping but still no fuel coming out of cappillary line...suction on the pot end of the cappillary line produces no fuel either...took the plate off of the filter on the side of the sump and pours fuel there...hmmm?

Bryand
01-24-2012, 02:02 PM
all right...rodded out the cappillary line with a 18 ga copper wire...put back together...started up fine, combustion fan on ...pump started thumping but still no fuel coming out of cappillary line...suction on the pot end of the cappillary line produces no fuel either...took the plate off of the filter on the side of the sump and pours fuel there...hmmm?
You may have fuel where your filter is in the bottom of the sump and still not have fuel where your fuel pump is in the top of the sump. If the needle valve is stuck in the closed position you will have fuel in the bottom of the sump but not in the top where the pump is. There is a bigger screw just to the left and above the plate where the filter is that allows you to drain the top of the sump.

hawkins111
01-24-2012, 02:03 PM
If the pump is thumping you may need to push the Red button or the metal lever once for one second ONLY. Depending on the year of your M21 you could have a Red button that trips the float off the magnet (off position). If there is a lever on the side of the sump it does the same thing. One time for one second ONLY. Once the float is off the magnet you may get fuel flow. The button is NOT a primer, just a trip off the magnet.

Tom

FordMan59
01-24-2012, 07:21 PM
About a 1 1/2 weeks ago my 422's combustion motor would come on then the burner would start. Soon after the heater began putting out heat the burner would shut down and all the burn indicator lights would start flashing. I tried several times to get it to run without any luck, I then took the screws out that hold the flame rod in and wiggled the flame rod around a little bit, put the screws back in and it's been working fine ever since. I assume some carbon had built up between the flame ring and the flame rod causing the flame rod to short out shutting down the heater. This may be something you'll want to try to see if it fixes your problem. Just be careful not to damage the gasket for the flame rod.

NEWHOPEFARMS
02-20-2012, 02:41 PM
hey guys...still haven't got it running yet....flame rod had a little carbon build up but cleaned it though....combustion motor cuts on immediately,pot warms up and emits a good stream of warm air,fuel squirts thru cappilary tube, looking thru the glass into the pot there looks like a steady, complete ring of firein the pot except there is an intermitent flare up right under the glass peep hole....when it trips to come on completely, there is a flare up and all goes out... at the end of the proces something trips and the 8 flashing lights are there again...any ideas?

Bryand
02-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Check to make real sure the flame rod is not too close to the burner ring. As the flame rod heats up it will move toward the burner ring not a lot but some. These are very hard to see down in to ensure it is not touching or close to touching. it really sounds like you are running out of kerosene as it runs for a longer period of time. Do you hear the fuel pump getting louder as it start to shut down.

hawkins111
02-20-2012, 04:02 PM
The numbers just donít add up. If the stove was purchased at the last of the M22 run or somewhat into the M422 run the stove would have been new in 1996. If you ran it 3 years and stored it for 9 years that would be 2006? I think the stove was run much longer than you think and is in need of a combustion chamber overhaul. Since it is a M21 you may be able to get away with oiling the blower motor bearings. If the blower case is a gray color, inspect it closely for cracks. You can get a new style black cover if necessary. The burner pot needs to be cleaned and a new ring installed.

Tom

NEWHOPEFARMS
02-20-2012, 04:08 PM
Bryand..

Slightly adjusted flame rod...I cant see only feel that it isnt touching anything...removed cappilary line and rodded it out again with 18 ga wire...has a strong blue flame thru the view glass...when it tripped off this time it may have given me it's clue to the problem....as soon as it tripped off, the empty fuel light came on. And there is a full tank on it...where does it read its empty status from?...sump float,needle valve, where?

HayZee518
02-20-2012, 05:25 PM
the sump tank has a toggle over center lockout that operates off the tank float. when the fuel level gets well below the 3/4 inch level in the sump, the needle valve shuts and locks itself shut. the fuel solenoid begins to thump as it runs out of fuel. no fuel, no flame and the flame rod shuts down the system and you get eight flashing lamps. to reset the computer you must unplug the heater, then plug it back in. merely re-starting the system will not work. its got to be unplugged and plugged back in.

hawkins111
02-20-2012, 07:44 PM
The capsule tank Empty Light gets its message from a switch on the Sump Tank. If you remove the capsule tank you will see the wires and switch on top of the Sump Tank. When the fuel level is low the switch no longer floats and closes. The circuit is complete and the Light comes on. The stove will not run with the Empty Light On. Make sure the plastic piece on the screen is sticking up enough to make the cap open when it is sitting on the sump tank filter.

Tom

NEWHOPEFARMS
02-20-2012, 07:45 PM
Thanks guys, I would have gotten to my wits end with this baby if it wasnt for you......I thinking you both are right...Hawkins111...I removed the view panel and see soot and powdery rust. This heater had to have been in service for at least8-9 yrs. My grandfather had the guy come out and do some preventive service work but it never broke down.I found a overhaul kit on ebay for $200 including the pot with the mat already glued in...also hayzee the empty light tells me something is still going wrong in the sump. got to regroup here and get this heater working...thanks a million...

FordMan59
02-21-2012, 07:24 PM
I found a overhaul kit on ebay for $200 including the pot with the mat already glued in...also hayzee the empty light tells me something is still going wrong in the sump. got to regroup here and get this heater working...thanks a million...

Don't discard the old pot unless it's cracked or warped. It can be cleaned up and reused. There's also material available at McMaster-Carr's web site for mats and gaskets, Rutland 77 Stove Cement works fine for gluing the mat down. I recently bought a 1'X3' piece of silica material for burn mats and an 1/8"X16"X10' roll of high temperature fiberglass material for making gaskets, and a 2.7 oz tube of Rutland 77 Cement all for about $40. plus shipping.

dfitz3390
03-25-2012, 10:23 PM
Fordman, how long is the MMC burner mat lasting ?

FordMan59
03-26-2012, 07:41 PM
Fordman, how long is the MMC burner mat lasting ?

I don't know how long they will last but the material seems to be thicker than the original Monitor material and is closer woven. I just changed the burn mat in my 422 at the beginning of Feb. 2012 for the first time using the Mc-Master Carr material. The material and flame have been fine ever since. The silica material I bought was rated at 1800* F so I'm hoping it will last at least a few heating seasons. The piece I bought was 1'X3' (enough to make 27 burn mats for the 422) and was $9.54 if I recall correctly. The product number is 8799K3 and it's .026" thick. I think HayZee518 has also used material from McMaster Carr and may be able to tell you how long it's been lasting for him. The fiberglass material I bought for gaskets is product number 9323K21, it's 1/8"X16"X10' and is rated at 1200*F and is $26.10 per roll. The material isn't as thick as the original Monitor material, but it's strong enough it doesn't tear just because you look at it wrong. I figured if 1/8" wasn't thick enough for some applications I could just double up and make it 1/4" thick. The only gasket I had to replace when I rebuilt my burn pot was the gasket for the igniter. I did double the material just to be sure.

HayZee518
03-27-2012, 02:09 AM
the woven silica material is coated with an acryllic just to give it stiffness. I'm sure uncoated would have worked just as well. silica [which is sand] is temperature rated for 1800 degrees. any hotter and it would melt into glass fibers. mine has lasted about six years and doesn't deform or curl up. as long as it isn't disturbed it should last longer. if you want to try a test, get a swatch of material, soak it with kero and light it. see how it is after the burn. see if it is still flexible or if it hardens.

FordMan59
03-27-2012, 09:25 PM
the woven silica material is coated with an acryllic just to give it stiffness. I'm sure uncoated would have worked just as well. silica [which is sand] is temperature rated for 1800 degrees. any hotter and it would melt into glass fibers. mine has lasted about six years and doesn't deform or curl up. as long as it isn't disturbed it should last longer. if you want to try a test, get a swatch of material, soak it with kero and light it. see how it is after the burn. see if it is still flexible or if it hardens.


Thanks for that information. I too was wondering about how often I'd be looking at between mat changes using this material. Since you live in the Northeast and I live in KY where the heating season isn't as cold or as long maybe mine will last even longer. The original mat in my 422 lasted 16 years, but most of that time I was living about 35 miles out of Charlotte, NC where the temperatures seldom got below the twenties or thirties at night and during the daytime hours it was usually warm enough the heater didn't run or ran very little. Your heater probably runs at least twice as much and at higher flame than mine does even here in south central KY. Unless it's down into the low twenties or teens mine normally runs on low flame over 90% of the time when it does run and usually runs less than 50% of the time except on cold nights, then it's not uncommon for it to run nearly constantly, but it's heating about 1200 sf with ease. I think the material I bought was un-coated, because it's not stiff at all.