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DKAudio
02-16-2008, 08:35 PM
My brother in laws sister is installing living spaces in their basement. Right now it is cinder blocks, small windows, no framing... They are going to frame, put in egress, and do electrical. I assume they are supposed to pull a permit? What would something like that cost, is it needed, etc? They are having all the work done by unlicensed people (handymen). After they pull the permit, do the work then they should get it inspected, correct? Cost for inspection?

I am the one who is going to do the electrical. Right now they have a 100A fuse box that I am going to change to a breaker box. To do this the tag on the meter needs to be cut and the plastic gauge pulled out, correct? I know it is illegal for me to do this so we are having the done. Once I get the box in and hooked up we will have someone come back out to retag it. This would be the correct process, right?

As far as codes go I have the following questions, please let me know if they are still current.

Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB
Load must be under 80% of breaker rating
Bored holes through joists must be at least 1 1/4" from edge, otherwise stell plate must be used.
Leave >6" of wire in boxes
4AWG feed for 100A service
Bathroom must be dedicated 20A with GFCI

Think that is all I would be dealing with, thanks

HayZee518
02-17-2008, 05:55 AM
so far your estimates are correct. Permits: you need a building permit how much call the town hall or city hall building department. they'll tell you what can be done by the homeowner and what cannot be done. Electrical requires two inspections a rough and a final. plumbing a rough before concrete is poured and before wall finish is put up. drilled holes in joist and framing members is approx center. where closer to an edge, steel "nail plates" must be used. 4awg aluminum seu for the service or 2/3 copper. disregard my posting I made a mistake on wire size.

DKAudio
03-17-2008, 05:03 PM
HayZee,
I just saw you wrote about a derating rule (more than 3 condutors through a joist). Is this a concern in a project like I mentioned above? I never thought have more than 3 conductors through a joist will cause heat damage. I understand for industrial/commercial but residential? Is this a code?

Also you said 4 awg AL service for 100A or 2/3 copper. What do you mean by 2/3? Copper can take a high current than al for same gauge, I would think 6awg copper if AL can be 4.

pushkins
03-17-2008, 05:47 PM
Permits are usually calculated by most counties on a sliding scale ie: $0 - $5000 cost = $60, $5001 - $9000 = $90 for example.

Be careful when your handyman asked you to pull a permit, when "you" pull a permit that makes YOU responsible for all work done, if it's incorrect then it is up to you to have the handyman correct it.

Usually when the homeowner "pulls" the permit they can perform everything (other than gas work) as mentioned above the permit "puller" is responsible for all inspections.

HayZee518
03-17-2008, 06:32 PM
for electrical in a residence the electrical equivelant to copper wire size is one gauge higher. that is why I said 2/3 copper can be used but most of the time a 4/3 aluminum is used. it is cheaper and can safely handle 100 amps of current.
ok. here's a quote from the codebook:
MORE THAN THREE CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTORS IN A RACEWAY OR CABLE. where the maximun number of current carrying conductors exceed three then the ampacities are reduced. - 4 to 6 -- 80%, 7 thru 9 --70%, 10 thru 20 --50%, 21 thru 30 --45%, 31 thru 40 -- 40%, 41 and above -- 35%. Notes: where cables or single conductors are stacked or bundled NOT in a cable assembly or in conduit, the above tables apply where the combined length is more than 24 inches.

DKAudio
03-17-2008, 07:03 PM
Very good, so in a residence having ~7-8 conductors sholdn't be an issue.



that is why I said 2/3 copper can be used but most of the time a 4/3 aluminum is used.


I guess I don't understand. Copper 2-3 awg is bigger than aluminum 3-4 awg. It has to be the other way...if aluminum is 2-3 awg then if you use copper it can be 3-4 awg.



Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB

How does this apply if an overhead light and wall switch are on the same circuit? Just take away a few outlets?



Be careful when your handyman asked you to pull a permit, when "you" pull a permit that makes YOU responsible for all work done, if it's incorrect then it is up to you to have the handyman correct it.

Usually when the homeowner "pulls" the permit they can perform everything (other than gas work) as mentioned above the permit "puller" is responsible for all inspections.

I am the handyman, I am being hired, not hiring.

I understand the principles of electricity very well, it comes 2nd nature to me. I am just not aware of all the codes, I know most of them though. My degree is in electronics so I am aware of all the electrical laws.

Thanks

HayZee518
03-17-2008, 10:57 PM
7-8 current carrying conductors, according to the code must have their amperage capacity reduced by 70% if bundled together. if laid out flat on a nail board they retain their current rating, or nailed to the face of a joist. ok -- say, 8 12/2 romex cables of 20 amps each times 70% equals no more than 14 amps each. this is due to radial heating.
I am to be corrected. I checked and misled you. 2/3 aluminum will carry 100 amps. I looked in the book and checked outside I got some SEU aluminum for 100 amp -- it's 2/3 aluminum.

DKAudio
03-20-2008, 12:59 PM
Great, thank you.

What about this question...


Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB

How does this apply if an overhead light and wall switch are on the same circuit? Just take away a few outlets?

I think that is all I have for now. They are framing right now and I will start the electrical in about a week.

Thanks for all the help.

HayZee518
03-21-2008, 12:13 AM
lighting loads for dwellings is 3 watts per square foot. what fixtures you use or go about getting THAT figure is up to you or the homeowners. most places I've wired I use seperate lighting circuits, but in a pinch if you take a feeder off an outlet for one or two lights, nobody is gonna complain. lighting is called an incidental load. you don't need to deduct anything from a circuit. as far as the service change goes. I'd call the power company and ask if you could cut the meter seal. find out their requirements with regard to grounding. some places want your driven ground to be connected at the meter neutral within the meter box. for building permits you need a rough and finish electrical. for plumbing you need a rough inspection before a pour for floor drains and a rough for house plumbing and pressure testing of water lines. bulding framing a rough from the building inspector. sometimes they require a room or house plan before they will inspect anything.

DKAudio
05-13-2008, 08:48 PM
Ok, slow process but they are done framing and ready for electrical. They pulled a whole house permit and the electric company is going to come out on Sat to disconnect the mains. I understand the electrical part but have some more basic questions (I am a little un-easy since I have never done a breaker panel and a whole floor for someone else). We are keeping their existing mains.

Do I need to know anything about changing a fuse panel to a breaker panel? The fuse panel is 100A and I will keep the breaker panel the same. I will probably buy a GE since I have heard about some Square D stuff being counterfeit. What about torque for the mains, big deal or not?

Since they are pulling a permit and hiring me (this is my brother in laws sister) do I need to do anything? I assume they are still liable since I am not a professional? Should I have them sign a liability waiver? I am not worried about doing this, just never changed out panels and dealt with permit work, etc. I can borrow a hydraulic Green Lee punch set from work in case the new panels knock-outs aren't in the right spot for their existing pipe, etc.

Thanks for all the help, any other tips would be appreciated.

HayZee518
05-13-2008, 09:07 PM
some jurisdictions allow a homeowner permit for electrical. in massachusetts where I wired houses they had an uninsured installers waiver for insurance. that way if something cooked they couldn't come back on me. [thankfully nothing ever did - 37 houses] check the size of the conductors coming out of the meter socket. all the power co is gonna do is pull the meter put some insulators on the stabs and shove the meter back in place and reseal it. you might consider replacing the wires from the load side of the meter to the new panel because they are never the correct length. make sure you use no-alox anti oxidant on all connections. torque is mentioned on the panel's nomenclature paper so many foot pounds or inch pounds. rule of thumb tighten it then wait a few minutes then retighten, then leave it alone.

DKAudio
05-13-2008, 10:31 PM
Hmm, I never thought I would need to replace the main wires. Can I even buy 4 AWG CU or 2 AWG AL at Home Depot? Do you have a pic on how the wires are landed inside the meter, never looked inside one before. I am going to go over there tomorrow to take the cover off their fuse panel. I want to be sure there are no big suprises as I haven't peaked in yet.

Do I use the no-alox on just AL or CU too? I just do this on the main conductors, right? Also available at HD?

Man, it would be nice if they just had CU and some good length too :)

HayZee518
05-14-2008, 05:15 AM
No-alox is good on all conductors most especially the service entrance conductors Cu or Al. But you hardly see it at outlet and switch terminations because it's so messy. In the case of aluminum branch conductors I'd use it but you hardly see aluminum on branch circuits. Use it if you have copper clad aluminum but again here's a conductor you hardly ever seen used. inside the meter enclosure are four stabs. two up top are the line, two at the bottom are load. right smack in the center between the four meter landings is the neutral clamps (2) the load is on the bottom along with a driven ground IF you utility uses this as the equipment ground or driven ground location. I may have a meter enclosure in my garage. I'll go look and submit a picture.

DKAudio
05-14-2008, 08:52 AM
Thank you. I can reply tonight after I pull their fuse panel cover with my findings.

All meters and breaker panels can accept CU or AL, right?

HayZee518
05-14-2008, 09:37 AM
most panels within the last 20-25 years are marked cu-al. the clamps are aluminum hard drawn, their screws are aluminum or cadmium plated steel.

HayZee518
05-14-2008, 10:11 AM
Typical meter sockets are manufactured by GE. Milbank, Crouse-Hinds. All residential sockets are rated 100 & 200 amp even tho the 200 ampere socket can be wired for 150 amp or so besides the 200 amp. The bottom or load side of the meter, the cable(s) may be a thermoplastic jacketed cable or metal or pvc conduit. if cable then you'd use a non weathertight connector and also at the panelbox. if conduit then where it enters the building you'd use what is called an entrance ell. can be pvc or metal. if metal then it needs to have bonding bushings at the meter trough and panelbox. couldn't find an adequate picture of a meter socket so I drew one.

DKAudio
05-14-2008, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the diagram, easy enough.



The bottom or load side of the meter, the cable(s) may be a thermoplastic jacketed cable or metal or pvc conduit. if cable then you'd use a non weathertight connector and also at the panelbox. if conduit then where it enters the building you'd use what is called an entrance ell. can be pvc or metal. if metal then it needs to have bonding bushings at the meter trough and panelbox.

Sorry, not quite following. Doesn't the meter and panel just have screw down clamps that take bare stripped wire like you mentioned in post #15? Every residential panel I have worked on has conduit housing the mains conductors which are just a normal rubber/plastic type insulation.

HayZee518
05-14-2008, 12:50 PM
Yeah, no problem - you understood correctly. what I was referring to in the latter portion was that if your output from the meter trough to the poanel is SEU cable then you would use non weather tight connectors to secure the cable to both the meter trough and panelbox. If your run to the panelbox was to be in conduit, PVC then you'd use three conductors AND if the conduit run was metal, that you'd need to use bonding bushings at both ends along with a stranded #6 copper ground between the bonding bushings. you see I know its hard to explain but grounding and bonding are two different things in the electrical code.

DKAudio
05-14-2008, 07:09 PM
I stopped by their house and pulled the cover. His flashlight was dead and it was pretty dark but I am pretty sure they are AL mains and you're right, pretty short. Other circuits have a fair amount of wire. They used red for N in one of the circuits (is BX with just black and red wires). I can just use white electrical tape and wrape the end where it lands on the N and G buss, right, will that pass inspection?

Coming down from their meter is conduit with 3 conductors (2 legs and N). I assume they get earth ground through the conduit. A close by water pipe is bonded to the N/G buss via probably around 6AWG solid.

I think it should be pretty straight forward, what do you think?

HayZee518
05-15-2008, 04:03 AM
the neutral wire should be white along its entire length but if they substituted which is what I see then a white tape for the neutral should be installed at both ends. the earth ground is from the water pipe. odd that the equipment ground is a solid wire usually it's #6 bare stranded. ok you are just changing out the panelbox to breakers?? then use the bonding screw supplied and connect the neutral to this bus. the hots will go to the main breaker lugs. you mention the meter and panel are interconnected with conduit. this should be a 1 1/4 inch pipe and have bonding bushings at each end. older services just used regular metal bushings with no bonding screw. look in my electrical fittings section of illustrations. I'm pretty sure I put in a bonding bushing illustration.

DKAudio
05-15-2008, 08:26 AM
This should almost be moved to electrical now :)

Yeah, I am removing their old fuse panel from the wall and installing a breaker panel. I will keep their existing circuits and also add many for their downstairs wiring which currently does not exist.

I looked through the illustration section and was not able to find the bonding bushing drawing. I assume it is just a clamp that hugs the conduit/pipe with a screw down for a wire?

I also just found out that it is code to have your grounding rod have a conductor to the meter. Then the meter down to the panel (by what your saying it sounds like I can use the conduit and bonding bushings?) then from the N/G buss to both sides of your water meter. Is this correct? Their water meter is on the other side of the their basement from the panel. If that is the case, where does the ground wire go in the meter. I see in your drawing the nuetral or ground bar but there are only 2 screws which should be line and load side nuetral, where would the ground go?


Does NEC say anything about the white plastic NMB nail staples? Can I put 2 wires under 1, what is the min distance that NMB needs to be stapled?

Finally, where do I get those huge allen wrenches for main terminals in panels? My friend (electrician) said you really need to torque on your mains and to get a wrench with a long handle for a lot of leverage.

Thank you so much, I appreciate all your time and help. I am confident, it is just the first panel change I have done.

Dan

DKAudio
05-15-2008, 06:13 PM
Sorry, not trying to be pushy but I am starting tomorrow. My questions remaining are in the previous post.

Of course I thought of some more too...

I heard that basements now require all GFCI outlets, is this correct?

What is the code for outlet spacing (IIRC one every 6', what if the wall is around 10'?)

Thanks a lot!

HayZee518
05-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Take a look at my diagram. this should explain some of your questions. after reading your last private msg you got me scared as to whether you can do the job. no offense intended but not knowing what a compression connector should be common knowledge to electricians. my phone is 518-856-0004 eastern time. name is Tom

HayZee518
05-21-2008, 07:09 PM
OK, a parts list you will need for your project is: 1 - 4/0 SEU weathercap, XX no of either two hole straps for 4/0 SEU or 4/0 SEU foldover clips, a 5/16 inch lag screw to hold the weathercap up to the house, a 2 inch weathertight compression connector, a 2 inch hub for the meter socket, a 200 amp Milbank meter socket, 2 - 1 1/4 inch pvc adapters plus locknuts, xxx feet 1 1/4 inch PVC conduit, xxx no of 1 1/4 inch one or two hole conduit clips or straps, 1 - 1 1/4 inch PVC entrance ell, Inside the house you'll need one or two pvc LB fittings. Outside a 5/8 inch copper clad ground rod, ground rod clamp, three 3/4 to 1 1/4 ground clamps. xxx feet #6 bare copper. use tye wraps to fasten the bare ground to the water pipe. use insulated staples to hammer the ground wire to the joists. use a regular romex connector to feed the ground wire into the new panelbox. one bottle of no-alox. the bolts in the meter socket are hex head bolts. the screws on the main breaker may be 1/4 inch allen head bolts. use a 1/4 inch ratchet allen head socket.

LazyPup
05-21-2008, 07:53 PM
I have been following this discussion of permits with great interest and it comes to me that heretofore it has been fringing on a very gray area of the law.

In most jurisdictions a property owner or his/her delegates may perform “maintenance” without a permit or inspection subject to some limitations. By example, in my jurisdiction, with the exception of installing a water heater, a homeowner may perform plumbing maintenance on the potable water distribution system and all related fixtures and appurtenances and the DWV (drain, waste & vent) system, however all maintenance on the house sewer, septic tank and leach field requires a permit and a subsequent inspection. On the house gas distribution system the homeowner or his/her delegates may install a gas appliance and may make the final gas connection from the appliance gas shutoff valve to the appliance gas control, but they may not perform any maintenance on the house gas piping system.

All “New Work” requires a permit.

The question then becomes, what is maintenance and what is new work?

By code definition the act of maintenance is servicing or maintaining the existing system in its original design and layout. This mean you can remove a defective pipe, valve or fixture and replace it in the same location with a like kind pipe, valve or fixture however, any alteration to the original design or layout is classified as “new work”. This means if you take out a tub you must replace it with a tub in the same location. Removing a tub and replacing it with a shower stall would be classified as new work. The same is true if you change the location of a fixture, which results in altering the length of any pipe would be technically classified as “New Work”.

In most jurisdictions a homeowner may pull a “Self Help Permit” if the structure that he/she intends to work on is a “single-family dwelling” and is occupied solely by the homeowner and members of his/her immediate family. (Don’t take this point lightly, if you so much as rent a room to an individual who is not a member of your immediate family you cannot qualify for a self-help permit.)

A Licensed General Contractor or a Licensed Tradesman must pull all other permits for new work.

Once the permit is pulled it is the obligation of the individual whose name is on the permit to specify the type and quality of all materials and insure all code compliance during the construction phase.

Under no circumstance may an unlicensed “Handyman” pull a permit for new work and taking this to the next level, an unlicensed handyman must follow the expressed instructions of the permit holder. Under no circumstances may a handyman specify any materials or construction methods. By code definition if a handyman specifies the layout, type of materials or construction methods that said handyman might be arrested and convicted of contracting without a license.

DKAudio
05-21-2008, 09:23 PM
Interesting read Lazypup. In your last paragraph you talk about expressing and specifying materials, layouts, etc. To whom would this "handyman" be talking to in order to get potentially arrested?

Tom, thank you very much for the parts list and diagrams, they help immensly.

I just got back from their house again to look things over. They do have 100A service with AL mains. I cannot read the writing on the mains but they look to me like 4AWG. I am hoping it was just dark and a wierd angle and that they indeed are 2AWG, I won't know until I can disconnect them.

Since they currently have 100A service, we are just going to keep that and change it to a breaker panel. It will make things much easier and quicker. I currently have jury duty and other side jobs, they need this done by memorial day for their son's birthday party. If I was to change out everything to get 200A service I probably wouldn't finish in time anyways.

I believe I know all the load side of the breaker panel codes and have wired many houses/circuits from the breaker on so I am not worried about that.

Now, since I am keeping the mains and service size, do I still need to install a grounding rod and do I need bonding bushings or is this "grandfathered in"?

Thanks again, I have learned a lot about the line side of a residential electrical panel.

HayZee518
05-22-2008, 01:00 AM
installing the extra [driven ground] brings the install up to code. bonding bushings are used only with metal conduit [ rigid conduit, emt, intermediate conduit IMC. etc] you are saving maybe oh, about three hours if you just replace the fuse box to breaker panel. a complete service change takes [a licensed guy] about 6 hours from start to finish.

DKAudio
05-22-2008, 08:31 AM
If I install the rod, where would I enter my metal conduit or meter cabinet? I assume it needs to be weathertight and I see no knock-outs or anything.

They do have metal conduit so I would need to install a bonding bushing on both ends. The meter end has a connection for the conductor? The panel end would just be a self tap to the enclosure?
The driven ground rod conductor just connects to the meter buss and stops, right?
The driven ground rod conductor and nuetral/ground buss to water meter conductor are two seperate conductors, just like your drawing shows, correct?

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum/attachments/projects/445d1211408062t-please-explain-me-process-pulling-permits-inspections-etc-ser2.jpg

HayZee518
05-22-2008, 04:39 PM
drive the ground rod as near to your foundation as you can. drive it till about an inch or two is showing. run the #6 up the side of the building into a bottom knockout on the meter socket. use the smallest knockout you can find. it don't have to be waterproof - the cable from the water pipe where it enters the house and around the meter should be one piece to the panelbox - no splices in between.

DKAudio
05-22-2008, 10:03 PM
the cable from the water pipe where it enters the house and around the meter should be one piece to the panelbox - no splices in between.

Sorry, this confused me. You drew the ground rod to meter box and the water meter to nuetral/ground bus as 2 different conductors. Is this right or does 1 solid conductor go from the ground rod, meter, nuetral/ground bus, water meter?

The electic company clipped and pulled the meter. It is a really old one! Inside it has load and line side, the neutral is a small screw down and there is no breaks in the nuetral. There is also no place to bring a ground conductor. I need to bring new 2AWG AL from the meter to the panel because they are short, How can I cut and install the nuetral and where should I bring the ground? Here is a pic for clarity...
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/4306/meterge5.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=meterge5.jpg)

We got all the parts today and I got their old fuse panel off the wall with existing circuits disconnected and labeled. Tomorrow I am going to put in the new breaker panel. The panel uses flat head screws for the mains and torque is listed as 50"lbs. I have no idea how that would feel in a hand driven screw driver, I will just do it almost as hard as I can and then check them again after a few minutes.

Thanks Tom!

Dan

HayZee518
05-22-2008, 11:09 PM
if you back out the screw on the neutral I'm sure you'll find two pieces under the clamp. the newer meter sockets have extra room for wires. if you are having this job inspected I'm almost sure the inspector will demand that you change the socket. the old sockets are NOT compatible with aluminum. I told you that from the beginning. As far as torqueing the breaker screws, yeah tighten them as best you can and re-tighten after a little while.

DKAudio
05-23-2008, 10:17 AM
ok, so if I have to replace the socket, the electric company will have to come back out and disconnect from the pole pig?

Can you get meter sockets at Home Depot or do I need to go to a supply house?

Would this include a new encosure or just the guts?

Thanks

HayZee518
05-23-2008, 10:23 AM
the whole thing - you wouldn't find the guts to fit an old trough.

DKAudio
05-23-2008, 04:46 PM
I talked to an electrician 1 county over (friends family member). He said to do the bonding bushing for the conduit and that 1 piece of wire should go from the driven ground rod to the panels neutral/ground buss, then to both sides of the water meter, then right where it enters the wall. I was still un-sure since I have heard so many different grounding/bonding procedures.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3495/ser2dg3.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ser2dg3.jpg)

We are keeping the meter socket and everything as is, if they don't pass it then they will spend the money and I will do the work. However, we are putting new wires in from the weathercap to the meter and then meter to the panel. Home Depot had 4 AWG CU for $1 per ft, we are going with that. Do I still need to use No-Alox with copper mains?

The neutral is 1 solid piece by the way, they just stripped a couple " section and clamped it down in the meter case.

Tom, if you don't mind I have some questions just because I want to learn...

What kind of wire is it where it looks like AL but you can scrap it off or when you cut it and look at the end it looks like CU? Is this a AL/CU clad? This is the type of wire that the old mains were.

Finally, how do those SEU line splices work (the ones from the power pole to the line side of the meter). When the electric guy came out to clip the meter he disconnected the line side too by removing the splices. I went on the roof and looked at them. It appeared to just be a AL tube (almost like a big butt connector) and then a plastic snap case to go over it. How do these "grip" the lines and how do they remove those hot?

Thanks Tom, learning a lot.

HayZee518
05-24-2008, 04:38 AM
the splices are crimp on splice tubes. some have just one bolt (9/16") hex bolt that draws up a two part clamp. the line side goes in one side and the service into the other. then a snap over plastic cap insulates the whole thing. that wire you looked at is tinned copper wire. has a tin coating along its entire length. yes use no-alox on any service terminations. doesn't have to be aluminum specific, it works just as well with copper terminations. the butt splices go on with a hydraulic press that indents the conductors. there's a no alox compound inside each tube.

DKAudio
05-25-2008, 01:28 AM
Ok, he must have set new splices on the roof then because I saw no crimp marks or bolts. That is why I was wondering how they attach, I did notice the no-alox inside of them.

I guess their old mains were copper then, just tinned. If they used to tin mains for the same reason they tin audio wires it is because it retards any oxidation or corrosion on the conductor. I guess they don't do it now to cut costs.

We are moving along very nicely. I decided to replace their weathercap and put in new wires from the weathercap on (4 AWG CU). The old neutral was bonded to the metal conduit near the weathercap with a clamp. It was so rusted (along with the weathercap) that I had to cut it off with a angle grinder. The new weathercap is AL and the clamp I bought is bronze. Will bronze be ok out in the weather and should I bond the neutral with this clamp to the metal conduit like it originally was?

Everything else is going great. I feel confident in replacing the whole meter box if need be.

Thanks for your patience.

Dan

HayZee518
05-25-2008, 04:56 AM
Didn't I tell you that it would be rusted? The old weather cap didn't have to be grounded, its really better to not bond the metal on a weathercap. Are you running new conduit to the weathercap or just using #2/3 SEU thermoplastic service entrance cable. I forgot to ask you, is the building's exterior wood clapboards or brick.

DKAudio
05-25-2008, 10:30 AM
The houses exterior is cedar shakes. The meter is mounted on their wall in the back yard. It has 1.25" metal conduit that runs from the weathercap (about 5' over the roof), goes into the attic and then exits through the houses soffit and down to the meter box. On the roof there is a mast that holds the neutral and too hot legs from the power pole. Therefore, I was going to run 3 seperate 4 AWG CU lines through the weather cap and down the conduit to the meter. The neutral was originally striped and clamped to the metal conduit (with no breaks in the neutral). You're saying I don't need to do that?

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1681/servrs8.th.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=servrs8.jpg)

HayZee518
05-25-2008, 12:07 PM
you don't need to bond anything at the weathercap, the mast screws into the hub on the meter socket and is made up wrench tight. mark one wire with the red tape at the ends, mark the other with white tape at both ends. the reason for the bonding is to continue the ground through ( around ) joints made by locknuts alone. the biting surfaces (points) of the locknut ground the conduit but can't really pass fault current if a short in a piece of equipment occurs. the locknut point(s) would just heat up and melt. Now that I know what ype of service you are doing I can help more. I was under the impression you had a thermoplastic or jute fiber seu conductor. Now that I know your doing a conduit job, that'll make things easier. At least we're on the same page.

DKAudio
05-25-2008, 01:48 PM
Ok, thanks, I will not bond the neutral with a clamp on the 1.25" conduit then. If that is not bonded, then do I need to do a 6AWG stranded wire from the weathercap to the meter box (clamped near the weather cap and then a bonding bushing in the meter box)? I know I have to do 2 bonding bushings on the conduit from the meter box to the breaker panel with 6 AWG inside.

By your last post I was starting to think that you thought I didn't have conduit through-out. That caused a lot of confusion, sorry about that.

I was going to do the red (phase B) and white (Neutral) tape on 2 of the conductors. It doesn't matter what line is red and what line is just black, right; it is just to differentiate.


Thanks Tom.

HayZee518
05-25-2008, 10:53 PM
ok, disconnect everything at the house hook. be very careful as there is no fusing between your house and the pole top or crib line. remove your whole old service. mount your meter box, install the hub. measure and screw together your mast. feed it up through the roof soffit. install the roof cap. install the weathercap. take the top off the weathercap and feed your wires down into the meter trough. bend the wires down into the insulated part of the weathercap - hots up top, neutral or ground through the bottom hole. now replace the upper insulator and screw on the weathercap top. In the meter trough make up the red and black to the upper meter terminals. the ground is stripped and goes on the middle terminal. install the rest of your conduit run to the basement panel box. at the conduit going to the basement from the meter socket install one bonding bushing, at the panel install the other bonding bushing. use a piece of #6 bare copper in the lugs on both bonding bushings. feed the cable inside the conduit. install the rest of your meter to panel run, black, red and heutral. at the meter location drive the ground rod, use the smallest knockout and feed the ground rod ground into and with the service neutral on the middle clamp. so you should have a wire along with the service conductors inside the pipe and bonding both bushings together. the wires at the panel go to the neutral strip, which is bonded to the case with a jumper or screw and the two hots go to the breaker. the waterpipe ground wire goes to the neutral strip.

DKAudio
05-26-2008, 07:15 AM
Thank you, I understood everything but have one question.

I am pretty sure I know what you are saying but just want to be sure.

The driven ground rod uses a seperate conductor than the bonding bushings, right? That means the conduit from the meter to the breaker panel will have 2 bare 6AWG stranded conductors (one from the bonding bushings on both ends and one from the driven ground rod which will go to the neutral/ground strip then to the water meter).

or

Does the driven ground rod conductor connect to the bonding bushings as well so my whole ground/bonding conductor is 1 piece?

Finally, no bare ground needs to go in the conduit from the meter to the weathercap?

You recommend using PVC for the conduit?

HayZee518
05-26-2008, 07:52 AM
look at the diagram. the ground from the driven ground rod is one piece to the neutral in the meter socket. another piece of bare 6 goes from the meter socket bonding bushing through the bushing's lug down in the conduit to the panelbox's bonding bushing's lug and through to the neutral strip. one piece of wire goes from the house waterpipe's clamp, through two clamps around the water meter all the way to the panel box's neutral strip. so at the panel box's neutral you will have one bare ground from the water pipe, one bare from the bonding system and one black/white tape from the meter neutral.

DKAudio
05-27-2008, 11:34 AM
Perfect, thank you so much for all of your help. I will let you know how the inspections go. We want to get power to the panel now, then we can wire up the basement without using a generator.

I will keep you posted, thanks again, you were a huge help.

Dan

KSever
08-25-2008, 12:36 AM
Well how did it turn out (pass or no pass) ?

DKAudio
08-25-2008, 11:03 AM
Pass,
I used a new weathercap and new conductors (kept the exsisting conduit, meter trough, and entrance ell) to the new breaker panel.

The basement contained ~21 newly added outlets, 10 new light fixtures, and all new conductors.