Converting 2 prong to 3 prong

[kactuskid]

Neutrals and grounds are supposed to be together in the main panel, they connect to the same neutral/ground buss bar. The rule is one neutral wire per hole. Ground wires can usually be double up in one hole. But this is the ONLY place that they can be tied together.

So, it sounds like you have the early version of romex wire on this circuit or knob and tube, which has no ground wire included in the cable jacket. K&T used the paper insulator and is cloth covered. I can't figure why you are seeing a voltage reading when measuring from hot to the metal box with this type of cable installed. This asphalt covered older romex with the silver covering and K&T wiring has a reputation for becomming very brittle overtime and the insulation flakes and falls off. I'm thinking that it's possible the insulation has broken off the neutral wire where it attaches to this metal box and the bare wire is making contact with this box. This would be very dangerous cause the box is actually live then.

[Snoonyb]

Originally Posted by jtfoxman

I took the cover off and it looked like there was a few connections that had the ground and the white wire together. Is this what you called bonding.

Yes. For that time period was an acceptable method.

Originally Posted by jtfoxman

Can I just kill the power and unbond them and place the ground in another open spot? Can I put 2 grounds in the same open slot?

If it isn't broke, do not fix it.
To effectively seperate grounding from the neutral you'll need a seperate bonding buss, which your existing panel may not support.

There may be other reasons for your reading 120V to the metalic box.
It was a common practice to run a bare copper conductor, stapled to the stud face and rather unceremoniously wrapped around a screw where the romex connector attached the romex to the box. There was, and still marginaly used, a friction clip used to attach the bare conductor to the box.

[Phelps]

Does poster jt have a lot of bare ground wires, I wonder, in his panel box? What do those silver wires look like that enter the panel box?: *Are* they just the 2 wires, or is there a ground wire in there with each of them?

And if not, perhaps someone got clever and ran 2-wire, but used an outlet-to-outlet jumper wire system, where they hooked up bare ground wire to the *back* of each metal box (invisible) by either screwing it to the box or by pinching it in the romex wire strain relief?

It seems like that if jt assesses the number of bare ground wires in his panel box and traces each of them back to the top and sides of the panel boxes entry points with the other wires, that he could find out by accountability, if what I am saying just might be possible, if he has some bare copper wires unaccounted for.

[jtfoxman]

I checked the main breaker again and only 3 or 4 of the wires going into the breaker do not have a ground.

So I went back to the outlet boxes and removed the outlet. I seen at the back of the box a little piece of wire so I removed the clamp inside the box that was holding the wires in place. Low and behold wrapped around the insulation of the wires there was a ground that was hidden and was touching the box.

I am thinking when they remodeled the house before we lived in it they didn't feel like unwrapping the ground wire and hooking up a 3 prong so they left it a 2 prong. Every single 2 prong outlet was like this. So I replaced them with 3 prong and I tested them, they all have a ground now. Now only have 3 outlets in the house without a ground and 1 is in each bedroom, these ones there was no ground that I could see. So not a big deal.

I even checked my current 3 prong outlets and a few of them had the ground wires wrapped around each other too. Lazy people just didn't want to unravel the ground wire to hook up the outlets corrctly. It took me awhile at each outlet to unravel the grounds but it was worth it. I even found a plug that was reversed polarized and fixed that to.

Thanks everyone for your input and help on this. You were all a very big help.

[SSN596]

An electrician can deteremine whether it would be proper to install new grounding receptacles. However, on thing you can do which provides a great safety imporvement: you are allowed to replace a 2 prong plug with a GFCI receptacle. This will function to provide personal safety, since if any current finds a path other than back to the neutral wire, the device trips. What this doesn't do is provide the actual grounding conductor which a lot of modern electronic equipment "likes" to have.

[kactuskid]

So the supply cable actually has a ground wire run with it or externally?

What's important to know is where the other end of this ground wire is landed. If this circuit doesn't have a ground wire comming into the main panel then where is it getting it's ground from. Any ground wire added after the fact should be run all the way back to the main panel

[Snoonyb]

"So I went back to the outlet boxes and removed the outlet. I seen at the back of the box a little piece of wire so I removed the clamp inside the box that was holding the wires in place. Low and behold wrapped around the insulation of the wires there was a ground that was hidden and was touching the box."

Walla, you've discovered the holy greil. I knew it had to be one of the entrepreneurial methods devised in the evolution to what exists today.
Now, you know to check for voltage to ground before replacing the recep. to 3 prong.

[HayZee518]

Older wires in new(er) panels always had the ground wrapped around the white and stuck into the neutral bar. The neutral bar of main panels are bonded to the enclosure through a screw or bonding jumper. Sub panels which come off the main have the neutral isolated above ground and an auxillary strip grounded to the enclosure. The neutral receives the white wire, the aux connects to the bare ground wire. All branch circuit bare grounds go to this aux bar, while the whites to the neutral strip. The wire you describe is early romex that is without a ground wire. Some had the ground some did not. The romex outer cable is a silver waxy feeling thing. If you scratch the surface the black tarry stuff was underneath it. A paper wrap was wound around each thermoplastic insulated conductor and this whole mess was encased in the tar and silver coating.

[HayZee518]

Back-wrapping or so it is called was common for electricians and homeowners BUT it lacks originality. It was possible to ground out the box this way but there was no "intimate" connection with the box as in "around a screw." Also what sometimes happened is that the wire was so firmly clamped that the wire insulation was smashed and created a high resistance short that wouldn't manifest itself until it was too late [FIRE! FIRE!]

[jtfoxman]

HayZee is right on about the type of wire, he described it a lot better than I did.
The ground wire was in the insulation with the other 2 wires, not seperate. And like HZ said the ground and the white wire are together in the main panel.
I also loosened the clamps in all the boxes so the wire had a touch of play in it. I had to take all the clamps out to get at the ground so it wasn't extra work. Just getting them clamps back in was a pain.
Now I have 2 oulets left that are not grounded in my 1 bedroom and the attic. It is all the same circuit. They all have grounds in the box but they all feed from the attic, just 1 light up there, that is only 2 wire. Can I run a ground from up there to the water main where the main breaker connects to so all my outlets are grounded? What would the simplest way to do this be? Do I have to run the ground inside the walls, house or outside. If it is outside should it be covered, I would think it would have to be.
I know this post is a little long and has been going on for a while so thank you all for staying tuned to my post.
I'm pretty good at all this electrical stuff as I do it all myself. I just need some expert opinions every now and then.