Laying down tile... what subfloor?

[JC]

We will be installing ceramic tile (8" X 8" X 1/4") as flooring in our downstairs powder room. Currently there is 3/4" tongue and groove subflooring above the floor joists. I am curious to know if I'll need to put down any more than a thin (additional) subflooring material or if I need a cement board or "hardi-backer" material instead. I hope I can get away with the thin stuff. I'll be using thinset to lay the tile. Thanks!

[kactuskid]

"You cannot install backer onto dimensional lumber. Any seasonal movement will be transfered into your backer board and cause all kinds of probs. Install 1/2" bc or better exterior grade plywood perpendicular to your joists every 6-8" oc with coated 1 1/4" deck screws after making sure you add a few mor screws into your plank subfloor. Then you can put 1/4" hardi overtop the ply set in unmodified thinset. If height is an issue, cut out the planking and replace with 3/4 bc or better ply and then 1/4" backer thinsetted and screwed, but that would be the absolute bare minimum floor structure for ceramic and will not do for stone. I also like to see a second layer of ply in the middle, and nothing less than 3/8" thick, but Hardi states 1/4" board over 3/4" ply is fine. If you run into probs, most they have to shell out is $10/sheet, so the second ply layer adds strength to the floor while cement board does not. Max span of those joists will be about 9.5' for stone and 12.5' for ceramic. If the spans are any longer, you will need to add structural support underneath or sister you joists.

Resecure the planks to the joists, screw your plywood only to the planks, not the joists to eliminate transfer of joist movement into your second layer of flooring. Use bc or better exterior ply (lesser grades have voids that can cause problems with supporting point loads), gapped 1/8" and between sheets and 1/4 around the perimeter to allow wall movement. Fill the 1/8" gap with cheap caulk to prevent thinset from filling the gaps and to allow for the minimal expansion/contraction you get with plywood. Spread unmodified thinset (cheap $5 bag stuff) with a 1/4" square notch trowel and set your backer board. Screw down every 6" oc with 1 1/4" backer screws, same gapping as the plywood, fill the seams with modified thinset and cover with alkali resistant mesh tape as you set your tile. Do not tile up to the perimeter or grout the perimeter either.As far as the specs for backer, you can set 1/4" backer over 3/4 ply on joists 16" oc, but that is scraping the bare minimum. As stated previously, with 3/4 ply, I recommend a second layer of 3/8" minimum as the ply gives the structural strength for deflection between joists and the backer does not. 1 1/4" ply is the minimum for direct to plywood subfloor tiling. "

[JC]

Hi KK... thanks for answering.

I found a similar response on floorstransformed.com

I remain skeptical about the need for all the extra wood. I am wondering if that is an overkill reaction... like screwing every 6" rather than every 8... I do appreciate your response though! I'm not going that route and will take my medicine if need be but I highly doubt there will be any issues. Time will tell I guess.

[kactuskid]

Ceramic tile floors require a rigid base, the wood and screwing is no way overkill. It all is requried to keep the floor from flexing. This has been proven over and over again, so the reason for standards, so folks don't go through all the hard work to just have the tile and grout crack on them and have to do it over again. I've seen it happen and it's more work to take it out and do over. But these folks didn't know any better. You do, so hope you enjoy your medicine

[anne1]

We have a kitchen floor that currently has vinyl flooring on it. When it is removed, underneath is plywood over an old hardwood floor. Can we put tile down on this plywood layer, if we first put down a waterproofing membrane or is that enough?

[floorman]

anne1,there needs to be more info included before anyone can say what needs to be done here.Is the floor underneath 2 1/4 plank or what kind of hardwood,also,what is the subfloor and the joist size and spacing?What is the original subfloor?PLywood,particle board,OSB?How thick?
Start a new thread with this info so we can keep track of things better and so can you too:-)

Floorman
floorlayers union local 1310

[Mark Lauzon]

I think Schluter Systems has a product called DITRA, look into that if thickness is an issue. Backerboard 1/4 & 1/2 has no strutrual value what so ever. Deflection is a result of joists, spacing and support.
Good Luck
mark
www.stoneadvice.com
"slab fabricator heaven"

[Tom McNall]

You need to have a subfloor that conforms to L/360 for ceramic tile and L/720 for natural stone.

Other wise you will get this:



Best of luck.

Have Fun eh?
Tom McNall
Great Northern Stone
www.greatnorthernstone.com
www.marblecleaning.net

[Mark Lauzon]

Damn Good Post Tom!
Mark
www.stoneadvice.com
slab fabricator heaven

[Tom McNall]

Aww Shucks, if I didn't know better, I would think that you were just patronizing me

Have Fun eh?
Tom McNall
Great Northern Stone
www.greatnorthernstone.com
www.marblecleaning.net