HELP!! PVC 4" pipe repair problem...

[apsuperman]

Break or separation in PVC pipe from house to septic..
Problem is that I can only access pipe on end. The other end is in concrete..Note the left side in the picture is all exposed now after digging..only right side is in concrete.. I can see the separation through viewport/cleanout as it is right in that area.. However, cleanout is right next to septic and cleanout is in concrete enclosure/footing that is right next to the septic..

The break is very close to where the pipe goes into the concrete but plumber says he needs to access both ends to fix it..
Anything out there that will help me fix this with access only on one end.. The relining is very expensive (4Grand) and I don't want to digup concrete and repour as that is very expensive here in Northeast to do (labor costs)..

[LazyPup]

I hope you will pardon my delay in responding but to be honest the more I examine the illustration and description of this problem the more confused I become.

Having formerly lived in Massachusetts and worked in N.Y. and all 5 New England states I can tell you from first hand experience that the North East region has some of the toughest code inspections in the country.

You state that your drain is PVC pipe so that would date this structure, as circa 1960 or later, yet it has been a code standard since pre World War II that whenever a pipe is passed through a masonry wall, the pipe must be sleeved through the concrete, stone or block. To make a sleeve you first pass a pipe at least two nominal trade sizes larger than the desired pipe through the concrete and extend it at least 2" out on either side of the concrete. The desired pipe is then passed through the sleeve and the space between the exterior wall of the desired pipe and the interior wall of the sleeve is then sealed with a flexible material (We use expansion foam today but in the past it was done with oakum, tar or pitch) By installing the pipe in this fashion it affords the desired pipe the ability to move slightly in the case of thermal expansion or contraction or when influenced by ground settling.

Assuming for the moment that there is no sleeve and in fact the drain pipe is set directly in the concrete as illustrated, and further assuming that the pipe has now somehow moved and left a separation in the pipe, the remaining tubular void in the concrete would still serve as a conduit for any effluent passing through the pipe so there should be no disruption in service. In fact, years ago clay tile pipe was made in 12" or 24" sections and the sections were simply butted together without any sealing material between joints. That was later improved upon by making end bells on one end of the pipe so one section could be fit into the end bell of the next section, but here again, there was no sealing material installed in the joints.

In the illustration you show a cleanout in the footer. A footer is a concrete pad that is poured in the base of the building foundation. Normally to create a footer the structure foundation perimeter is dug down at least 6" below the frost line, and a minimum of 6" into undisturbed soil and typically about 18" to 24" wide. Concrete is then poured into the footer trench to form a solid pad under the structure. (The actual width and depth of the footer is determined by the size of the structure and the soil compaction characteristics but normally the footer will only be about 20" thick.) The footer wall is then built up from the footer to above grade by means of concrete block or sometimes cast concrete. This means that if this is in fact a footer there should be a structural wall directly above in the area where the cleanout is illustrated.

The Plumbing codes prohibit digging within a 45 degree down slope from the base of the footer therefore for each foot of depth we are required to be a foot away from the footer. Typically a septic tank will be a minimum of 3-1/2ft deeper than the point were the input line enters the tank, therefore the tank should be a minimum of 3-1/2’ away from the footer wall but in the illustration it is shown tight against the footer.

I am then left with two questions:

1. If this is a footer wall; why is the septic tank that close to the wall?
2. If the tank is a little distance from the structure foundation, what is the purpose of the concrete depicted as a footer in the illustration?

Perhaps if you can give a bit more details we can find you a solution to the problem.

[apsuperman]

Thank you for your detailed description.

I apologize, and the picture probably isn't 100% accurate. I was trying to get the gist of it and didn't realize the need to provide to actual pictures.. I will take actual pictures of the site and post them and I hope that will help more than the picture I have drawn here..

sewage IS going through and the system is working fine. However, due to the separation, Stuff gets caught in rough areas and we have had it back up within 4 weeks of snaking it out so I believe the rough spots are catching sewage items and eventually causing a clog..

Building was built in 1999.
The area I am showing is away from the house. The pipe coming out of the house is fine, but it goes about 8 feet and then comes upon this cleanout port area and then the septic tank.. As far as the concrete footing, I only see concrete and am calling it a footing because that is what the plumber told me it was (I though it was the start of the septic possibly). There is a wall above the cleanout, but it is about 2 feet down from ground level.. My estimate is that the actual pipe is about 3.5 feet down ( I will include actual measurements with the actual site pictures)..

I really don't know what the concrete structure near the tank is either and the tank really is very close to that cleanout because I see two manhole covers and I know those are for the tanks.. I hope my posting the pics will help..

I think the solution isn't that complicated but all these guys want 4-5 grand to do this work so I hope I can find a simpler/more affordable solution from the experts here..

quote:Originally posted by LazyPup

I hope you will pardon my delay in responding but to be honest the more I examine the illustration and description of this problem the more confused I become.

Having formerly lived in Massachusetts and worked in N.Y. and all 5 New England states I can tell you from first hand experience that the North East region has some of the toughest code inspections in the country.

You state that your drain is PVC pipe so that would date this structure, as circa 1960 or later, yet it has been a code standard since pre World War II that whenever a pipe is passed through a masonry wall, the pipe must be sleeved through the concrete, stone or block. To make a sleeve you first pass a pipe at least two nominal trade sizes larger than the desired pipe through the concrete and extend it at least 2" out on either side of the concrete. The desired pipe is then passed through the sleeve and the space between the exterior wall of the desired pipe and the interior wall of the sleeve is then sealed with a flexible material (We use expansion foam today but in the past it was done with oakum, tar or pitch) By installing the pipe in this fashion it affords the desired pipe the ability to move slightly in the case of thermal expansion or contraction or when influenced by ground settling.

Assuming for the moment that there is no sleeve and in fact the drain pipe is set directly in the concrete as illustrated, and further assuming that the pipe has now somehow moved and left a separation in the pipe, the remaining tubular void in the concrete would still serve as a conduit for any effluent passing through the pipe so there should be no disruption in service. In fact, years ago clay tile pipe was made in 12" or 24" sections and the sections were simply butted together without any sealing material between joints. That was later improved upon by making end bells on one end of the pipe so one section could be fit into the end bell of the next section, but here again, there was no sealing material installed in the joints.

In the illustration you show a cleanout in the footer. A footer is a concrete pad that is poured in the base of the building foundation. Normally to create a footer the structure foundation perimeter is dug down at least 6" below the frost line, and a minimum of 6" into undisturbed soil and typically about 18" to 24" wide. Concrete is then poured into the footer trench to form a solid pad under the structure. (The actual width and depth of the footer is determined by the size of the structure and the soil compaction characteristics but normally the footer will only be about 20" thick.) The footer wall is then built up from the footer to above grade by means of concrete block or sometimes cast concrete. This means that if this is in fact a footer there should be a structural wall directly above in the area where the cleanout is illustrated.

The Plumbing codes prohibit digging within a 45 degree down slope from the base of the footer therefore for each foot of depth we are required to be a foot away from the footer. Typically a septic tank will be a minimum of 3-1/2ft deeper than the point were the input line enters the tank, therefore the tank should be a minimum of 3-1/2’ away from the footer wall but in the illustration it is shown tight against the footer.

I am then left with two questions:

1. If this is a footer wall; why is the septic tank that close to the wall?
2. If the tank is a little distance from the structure foundation, what is the purpose of the concrete depicted as a footer in the illustration?

Perhaps if you can give a bit more details we can find you a solution to the problem.

[apsuperman]

Ok.. SO I had RotoRooter look at it today..
Here is what the guy said..
Basically, the end of the lateral pipe that I am seeing is not a break.(i.e. the red pipe in my picture does not exist) The pipe is extending too far laterally to the right.When I look down thecleanout, I should actually see the bottom of the tank. Instead I see the pipe because it is extending too far laterally to the right. It has moved because the pipe wasn't sealed around the hole.

The blockage is because the pipe is really coming out too far and obstructing the opening through which stuff should be going down..

Does this make sense to you ? I put the Rotorooter guy's exact words below and am also going to ask the Homebuilder to come out again and look at it as this seems to be an issue with how they built this and that they did not seal the area where the pipe goes into the concrete.. Any help would be appreciated on this as I am writing a letter to them explaining why this was put in improperly.. Of course,this is based on what the Rotorooter guy told me..
If this is the case, The fix should be easy as I can have a plumber cut the pipe from one side where he can access it and make it shorter..
**************************************************
RotoRooter Comments:
To repair 4" PVC Sanity Line at Septic Tank.
Open cut excavation to remove spoils in a 6ft by 4ft area Prior to tank to access existing pipe.
Make repairs to 4" PVC pipe and new connection at tank wall.
Apply water tight seal with cement and tar.
backfill to rough grade.


Comments: Sewer line extends too far into tank. Pipe is up against baffle wall.
Pipe inlet hole in septic wall should be sealed around pipe.

[LazyPup]

That makes perfect sense and the suggested repair seems right on the money to me.

[apsuperman]

Thanks Lazypup.. I ot the issues resolved and wanted your expert opinion on something the plumber brought up.I had a plumber come fix it without spending thousands.> However, even he is giving me things to think about.. I had the tank pumped out two months ago.. Yet when we look down the cleanout pipe (which is now unobstructed), we can see tissues floating in the area and the water is just a bit below the level of the inlet pipe.. Is this normal.. I looked at the port at the outlet of the tank and I see that the level is just below that of the outlet pipe so I'm assuming that is a good thing.. I just don't know if at the inlet end of the tank, should the water level be almost as high as inlet pipe.. The guy also said after seeing tissues floating around the inlet area that solids don't getting broken down in the tank.. Any thoughts ? I figured I would ask here before I spend some more money getting another evaluation..
Also - what should the tank look like 2 months after I pumped it.. my assumption is that i won't look much different because pumping is mainly to remove solids.. What would indicate that the tank needs to be pumped (anything I can check ??)

quote:Originally posted by LazyPup

That makes perfect sense and the suggested repair seems right on the money to me.

[LazyPup]

In order to answer your question we must examine how a septic tank actually works. Mechanically nothing could be simpler, but in operation it is a very complex operation.

While septic tanks are commonly constructed of cast concrete, there are also some that are made of fiberglass or synthetic plastic materials.

In its simplest form a septic tank is merely a large storage vessel where the waste can be held while it is being digested by an anaerobic bacterial colony in the tank. (Anaerobic bacteria grows in the absence of oxygen.)




During the digesting process there are a number of gasses that are produced which result in a foamy scum layer appearing on the surface of the liquid. In order to prevent the scum from entering into the leach field there is a baffle on the output side of the tank.

Some tanks have a second baffle on the input end as well. When there is a baffle on the input end any floatable biodegradable solids entering the tank will be held in the first chamber until they break down into a liquid state. This explains why you can see toilet tissue in the first chamber where you are looking in your inspection port. Within a very short period of time after entering the tank that toilet tissue is broken down by the water and bacterial action and is dissolved into the normal liquid in the tank. Here again the baffles simply prevent the toilet tissue from floating across the top surface of the liquid and into the leach field where it might clog the lines.

Non-digestible solids sink to the bottom of the tank and form the non-digestible sludge which must then be physcally pumped out of the tank.

As the anaerobic bacteria in the tank digest the biodegradable waste the effluent entering the leachfield line is basically just gray-water.

The leachfield lines are run rather shallow and some atmospheric air can pentrate the soil and enter the leachfield lines. In turn, there is aerobic bacteria in the leachfield lines that complete the digestion of waste and the remaining water is absorbed into the soil.

Because the whole system works on gravity flow the normal liquid level in the tank will be up to the level of the leachfield discharge port on the output end of the tank.

The input line of the tank is slightly higher than the liquid level to insure the house sewer line will completely discharge into the tank and allow the excess gasses in the tank to vent back through the house sewer to the house drain and ultimately out through the house drain system roof vents.